I was inspired to do this post by Kristen over at Sweet Horse's Breath, she asked about hoof angles which is something I have an opinion about (of course, right?).
I realized that I've posted a lot of sole shots of the Quarters' hooves but I haven't shown much of the top side. The reason for that is I believe if the sole of a hoof looks good then the top of the hoof usually looks pretty good too. But it has finally occurred to me that most people look at the casing of the hoof instead of the sole- and that's where the angles come in.
There's only one angle in the hoof that I really care about- the hairline angle. It should be around 30 degrees from the ground and it should be straight. If it's horizontal to the ground, curved around the heel, or is lumpy and bumpy you've got problems. If the hairline angle is around 30 degrees, you can be reasonably assured that the coffin bone is in the correct position inside the hoof.
I care very little about the toe angle. I know that many farriers go on about how the toe should always be around 55 degrees, but I don't go for that -because the toe LIES. If there's any degree of separation in the lamina that toe will stretch and the angle will grow shallow. If all you're looking at is that angle you end up letting the heels get higher and higher as you try to keep that angle at the toe. If you do that for long enough you end up with a lame horse at best and a foundered one at worst.
I feel about the same about the heel angle. If the heel is underrun the hairline angle will tell you anyway. If the heel is too high, the hairline angle will tell you that too.
Anyway, time to put my money where my mouth is:
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| Gwen's left fore |
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| Gwen's right fore |
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| Gwen's left hind |
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| Gwen's right hind |
Keep in mind that my horses have classic hi/lo front feet because they have terrible posture. They both stand with the left fore back that makes it clubby and the right foot forward which makes it want to splay out. Hopefully as I get further along in their training, lateral work will take care of this problem.
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| Coriander left fore |
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| Coriander right fore |
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| Coriander left hind |
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| Coriander right hind |
Are they perfect? No. Because of the crazy weather we've had the grass sugars have been all over the place, we had an especially bad spike this spring and many horses had acute laminitis attacks because of it. Fortunately, neither one of my horses was lame from it but they were still affected.
Despite that, Coriander is trot-on-gravel sound and Gwen has never acknowledged the existence of gravel. She has Chuck Norris hooves: She doesn't need to watch out for rocks, rocks need to watch out for her.
Thoughts? Questions? Concerns?
Hmm checking the hairline is a really interesting concept (and way easier than trying to match pastern angle). I'm not really sure what 30 degrees from the ground is, so I'll have to find some tool for measuring it, but from looking at these pictures I can tell you my horses' angles are off lol. And their quarters are jammed too if I'm not mistaken. Sigh. More work to do lol.
ReplyDeletePastern angles are another thing I don't pay too much attention to but I made sure to include them in the photos for those who would be interested. You might notice that Gwen has much straighter pasterns than her brother, riding her feels like being on a pogo stick while Coriander is much smoother.
Deletepastern angles are a big deal to my farrier (okay, ex farrier) so much that he put a pad in one of her front hooves but now I look at her feet and they look so off.sigh.
DeleteInteresting post. I'm not a great hoof person with angles or anything else. I trust my farrier and leave it to him. He's helped Dusty and made her sound. Grady too. He works with our vet to make sure they get what they need. It's always good to educate ourselves so your posts do help me try to know what he's talking about.
ReplyDeleteIf it helps you understand what they natter on about and have constructive input that's good enough for me :)
DeleteSo much to learn! Angles and really anything to do with numbers have not been my strongest trait, but I will be looking at Shy's when I go to the barn. Although, my farrier assures me that she has excellent hooves, I like to be able to tell for myself.
ReplyDeleteExcellent, you should be able to tell for yourself. I'm pretty sure Haffies normally have good hooves, being a stocky type of pony helps with that.
DeleteOk how the heck do you measure that angle? I agree that toes can lie having seen it. I am still working on training my eye. I enjoy the aspects to bring to our attention.
ReplyDeleteI have a flexible angle gauge that I can line up next to their hooves to measure it, it looks kinda like a plastic triangle. Keep in mind that like any other measurement for hooves that 30 degrees isn't set in stone. Gwen's are a little steeper than 30 degrees, but since they're all like that I'm not bothered by it- probably has something to do with her straighter pasterns.
Delete"She has Chuck Norris hooves: She doesn't need to watch out for rocks, rocks need to watch out for her."
ReplyDeletebest quote EVER!
:)
DeleteI'm most interested in the drastic changes in the hoof angles of the fronts, especially Gwen's. What happened there?
ReplyDeleteThe crazy sugar in the grass did, possibly along with her first two heats of the year. At the end of April we had a week of 80 degrees followed by a couple days of snow and the grass went NUTS with the sugar. She also gets crazy during her heats so I think her hormones go a bit nuts and inflame her hooves a bit.
DeleteCould she also be IR? I don't know, I hope not but I'm going to keep an eye on it.
Okay, those flares were bothering me so I asked James Welz for his opinion. He says that horses with pasterns like hers tend to flare like this (damn you straight pasterns!). The fix is to keep her toes super-duper short. Anything that sounds non-IR is good to me!
DeleteI have a feeling that there's a left brain + right brain component to judging hoof angles.
ReplyDeleteYou can pull out the protractor and find the 30 degress (if you know where to measure). You can look at the overall picture of the hoof / pastern and use your eye. Seems like both require the benefit of many years experience with lots of horses hooves to develop the confidence that your eye is right.
Also love the Chuck Norris comment. And am jealous of said hooves. ;D
Our eyes are very good at seeing symmetry, most healthy things are beautiful and most beautiful things are symmetrical. We are programmed to see it. Healthy hooves have a certain symmetry to them, especially from front to back. Most people can look at a hoof and know in their gut that something is off. The knowledge comes in for knowing WHAT is off.
DeleteYour right brain will tell you whether it is beautiful, your left brain will categorize it for ya :)
You don't need a protractor, you just need Cheryl Henderson's special 30-degree flexible measure-y thingy to make sure the coronet is the correct angle. ;-)
DeleteI have one of those, I hardly ever use it.
DeleteI have always followed the angle of the shoulder to determine the correct angle of the hoof. The pastern angle can be changed due to improper trimming or a stretched toe, which is where problems with soft tissue stress or tendon and ligament injury can come into play...so the shoulder is a truer indicator of what the ideal pastern and hoof angle should be.
ReplyDeleteI know different people have different ideas about taking external hoof wall off, but I am adamant about taking stretched toe off from the outside to improve break-over. A lot of injuries to the front legs of barrel horses are caused from a slow break-over, which puts a tremendous amount of stress on soft tissue, tendons and ligaments.
Looking at race horse hooves must drive you nuts, eh? I can't believe how long they let the toes grow on those horses.
DeleteI absolutely agree with you about bringing the toes back to improve breakover- except that I've seen some horses get pretty damn lame from it so I've gotten conservative about it. For instance, I think Coriander's front toes are a little long but it's that extra length of toe that makes him so sound over rocks. Sometimes trimming a horse becomes an experiment, you have to find the combination that works for that horse.
I don't know that I agree with you about the shoulder, I'll have to look into it.
I think the whole "follow the pastern angle, follow this angle," trains of thought, etc. should be thrown out the window--allow the horse to grow the angle s/he finds most comfortable.
DeleteI'm not always a big Pete Ramey fan, but I do agree with him about covering the bottom two-thirds of the hoof with your hand and looking at the angle of growth at the top of the foot, then taking your hand away and seeing if the angle at the bottom part of the hoof matches. The angle at the top of the hoof is the angle that the *horse* wants to grow, the bottom part is the angle that has been distorted through trimming/shoeing, etc. (This only works several weeks into the trim/shoe cycle, obviously--a lot of farriers/trimmers will rasp the hoof like crazy in order to make it look like everything is all lined up.)
This is interesting, I have always been told to look for a 45 degree angle (but every horse is different). My horses are trimmed as much as possible to their own bodies. If a horse is sound and moving correctly you must be doing something right! I have a mare who has awesome feet who I always say could walk on glass and not notice. But her feet look funny from the side and she tends to want to under run her heels. We are working on correcting that and her angles are slowly changing to slightly more upright.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteArgh, stupid typo...
DeleteUnderrun heels are almost always accompanied by a long toe and bars that have grown forward over the sole. Does your mare have either of those?
No her bars are pretty minimal, but her toe looked really long from the top/side view, but were normally pretty tight up against the white line from the bottom. Her feet grow even and dont chip, she has a nice thick wall as well.
DeleteWell if she's sound like you say she is then there can't be too much wrong. Sometimes they can look a little wonky but work perfectly :)
DeleteHer feet are weird. She is a 14.2hh arab with size 0 feet. When we ride on gravel it just files her feet lol. Her feet are looking more normal now and she is still sound as ever, but it has increased her stride.
DeleteThat 30 degree works, but for some hooves, as you point out +/-
ReplyDeleteFor Laz, his RF is a club and if I go anywhere near that 30, he's a lame duck and goes worse in his toe first landings. It's so odd, b/c to me, it 'seems' to make sense to lower heel, allow the stretch and build up the back, but he will grow heel overnight. Swear. Crazy. So, now I suppose I need to listen to him and allow time to fix it. Or nature. She and I can argue sometimes ;) Nice hooves on your ponies! Gwen does show some interesting changes. If you do that IR test, will you follow Kellon's advice?
Right, every horse has their own needs and there will always be that one horse who is radically different.
DeleteI used to have to leave Coriander's heel on the club foot a little high, but then we started doing more shoulder-in and lateral work and that heel started coming down on its own. I think stretching the muscles in his shoulders made the difference.
If Gwen ends up being IR, I will follow Kellon's advice. She's the best, after all.
And this is exactly why I pay my farrier to take care of the beasts' feets for me. I have no clue when it comes to hoof angles...as long as it's not clubby, cracked or falling off, it's all the same to me. :( I know, pathetic.
DeleteI can tell when they are done, and I know what extremes to avoid in angles, but when it comes to basic angles on an already decent foot? I'm as lost as last year's Easter Egg.
*"I can tell when they NEED to be done,"
DeleteI don't want anyone to take what I say as gospel - I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again - but I do want to encourage people to become active participants in their horses' hoofcare. There are a lot of hoofcare providers out there being trusted implicitly who really shouldn't be.
DeleteI have started a blog to document my mare's progress into the barefoot world. I'd love for you to come over and comment on what you think. http://rethinkingthehorse.wordpress.com/
ReplyDeleteI'll come by for a visit :)
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